Curse

Roland of Gilead · Jan 15, 2008, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Fresh and hot out of my inbox, the quasi-reply from European GW customer service. German members, feel free to confirm my translation or point out significant (!), statement-changing (!) errors.

Quote:

Hallo Matthias,

vielen Dank, dass Sie Sich an die europäische Guild Wars Kundenbetreuung gewandt haben.

Sie fragten uns, ob Ihre programmierbare Tastatur zum Spielen von Guild Wars für uns akzeptabel wäre. "Was wäre, wenn..."-Fragen wie diese, sind stets schwer zu beantworten, wenn wir bislang keine Entscheidungen über solche Vorkommnisse zu fällen hatten. Wie dem auch sei, werden wir versuchen Ihnen zu verdeutlichen, was wir als "richtig" oder "falsch" erachten, wenn Sie Ihre programmierbare Tastatur in Verbindung mit Guild Wars verwenden.

Das Nutzen Ihrer programmierbaren Tastatur als normale Tastatur ist mit Sicherheit problemlos. Eine Tastatur ist ein Standard-Eingabegerät, welches unabdingbar zum Nutzen eines Computers und auch des Spieles Guild Wars ist. Jedes Mal, wenn Sie eine Taste drücken, wird ein Zeichen auf dem Bildschirm abgebildet oder eine andere Aktion ausgeführt und im Allgemeinen ist dies akzeptabel.

Wären Sie irgendwie in der Lage, Ihre programmierbare Tastatur so zu nutzen, dass Spielabläufe vollständig automatisiert werden, speziell bis zu einem Punkt, an dem Sie sich nicht einmal mehr selbst am Rechner aufhalten müssen, während Ihre Tastatur-Software das Spiel "spielt", dann wäre dieses ein Verstoß gegen unsere Lizenzvereinbarung und somit Anlass für Sanktionen ( "Sie erklären sich damit einverstanden, keine Hardware oder Software zu benutzen, einschließlich, aber nicht darauf beschränkt, Hilfsprogramme von Drittanbietern, oder irgendeine andere Supportmethode, die nicht von NCsoft autorisiert ist, einschließlich, aber nicht beschränkt auf die Benutzung von "Bots" und/oder anderen Methoden, durch die der Dienst automatisch und ohne die Einwirkung von Personen genutzt werden kann." ).

Irgendwo zwischen diesen beiden Szenarien befindet sich eine Grauzone. Wir können keine "endgültigen Entscheidungen" über Fälle inmitten dieser Grauzone treffen, wenn es bislang über keine solcher Fälle zu entscheiden galt und wir werden nicht rein spekulativ über sämtliche denkbaren Fälle innerhalb dieser Grauzone entscheiden. Stellen Sie bitte generell sicher, dass Sie sich während des Spielens an Ihrem Computer aufhalten und Ihr Spiel selbst spielen. Letztendlich bleibt noch zu betonen, wie wichtig und unbedingt notwendig es ist, dass jeder in Guild Wars gespielte Charakter durch eine Person am Computer gesteuert wird.

Wir wissen, dass wir Ihnen keine eindeutige und alles beantwortende Antwort liefern konnten, hoffen jedoch Ihnen veranschaulicht haben zu können, was einerseits "jemandem beim Spiel behilflich sein" und andererseits "für jemanden spielen" bedeutet und was wir dabei als akzeptabel empfinden.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

GM Alissa
Guild Wars Europe Kundenbetreuung
NCsoft Europe
http://de.guildwars.com

Translation:

Quote:

Hello Matthias,

Thank you for having turned to the European GW customer support.

You asked us whether your programmable keyboard would be acceptable to us for playing GW. "What if..." questions like this one are always difficult to answer, because so far we did not have to make an actual decision about such events. Be as it might, we will try to make clear what we believe is "right" or "wrong" when you use your programmable keyboard with GW.

Using you programmable keyboard as a regular keyboard is certainly not problematic. A keyboard is a default input device, which is essential for using a computer and also for playing GW. Each time you press a key, a character will be displayed on the screen or another action is performed and in general, that's acceptable.

Were you somehow able to use your keyboard in such a way as to completely automate gameplay, specifically to the point that you wouldn't even have to be near the computer while the keyboard software "plays" the game for you, then that would be a breach of our license agreement and therefore reason for sanctions ("You agree not to use any hardware or software, including but not limited to third party tools, or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive, including but not limited to the use of 'bots' and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input." {quote from the UA, RoG}).

There is a grey area somewhee between these two scenarios. We cannot make "final decisions" about cases within this grey area if so far there haven't been such cases to decide upon and we will not decide upon any and all cases within this grey area based on nothing but pure speculation. In general, please make sure that while playing you are at your computer and you play the game yourself. Ultimately we want to emphasize how important and unconditionally necessary it is that every character played in GW is being controlled by a person at the computer.

We know that we could not provide you with an unambiguous answer that covers all questions, but we hope that we were able to illustrate the difference between "helping someone at the game" and "playing for someone" and what we consider acceptable with regard to that.

kind regards,

GM Alissa
GW Europe customer support
NCsoft Europe

I have posed a follow-up question and asked if they would check out the final program and decide for that particular case if it's legal or not, to nail this thing down and remove all speculative bits.

Generally, however, the reply confirms what Rhedd and Isilieth already said, making my tool legal as far as I can tell because I will design it so. I will continue developing it and it should be complete within the week. Watch this space for more announcements.

scrinner · Jan 15, 2008, 01:24 PM // 13:24

I would be Very interested in this program as long as there is no interference with actual mouse work (fixing that button repeatedly pressed thing would really be nice). However i just have one question.

For example if i press SHIFT + 1 Which hero would it command?

Roland of Gilead · Jan 15, 2008, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Scrinner, you would freely define via an graphical interface which key combination would cause which action. You would have your complete keyboard (0-9, a-z, F-keys, Space, Return, all numpad keys, special keys like Del/Home, etc.) available plus any combination of the Shift, Alt, and Control key, making for hundreds of possible hotkeys. As for gaming interference, there are constellations where you cannot use the tool because of an action you take in GW (while you hold a mouse button, you cannot simulate a mouse click with the tool), but GW's original functionality would in no case be negatively affected unless you overwrite any original hotkeys.

Uber Mass · Jan 15, 2008, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

1. GW isnt an mmo. Its a CORPG.

2. GW is advertised as a game you can play on your own with AI.

So saying improvements shouldnt be made because it shouldnt be a single player game isnt really valid, because it is a single player game as well as a multiplayer game.

touché you are right on that one...

Draikin · Jan 15, 2008, 01:54 PM // 13:54

I wouldn't mind a program like this if it only helped in PvE but in Hero Battles it's going to give players an advantage if they use it. Instead of allowing the use of programs like this, Anet should simply implement this functionality themselves so that everyone can use it.

Roland of Gilead · Jan 15, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Draikin, Heroes have been in the game for well over a year. They're not going to implement that all of a sudden, even less now because they're focused on GW2. That's the perfect place for the modding community to step in.

Draikin · Jan 15, 2008, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland of Gilead

That's the perfect place for the modding community to step in.

The question is if it's actually a good thing when people start creating mods that work in the "grey area" that the GW customer service mentioned, especially when they give obvious benefits when used in PvP.

Rhedd · Jan 15, 2008, 03:09 PM // 15:09

I'm glad it sounds like your program will probably be allowable, Roland.

I'd give a lot to be able to bind a key to Vekk's Meteor Storm. ^_^

MagmaRed · Jan 15, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Ok, you got a response about a programmable keyboard. That is nothing new, as those have been around for years. What about your program, which is separate from the keyboard? Will it run ONLY with a programmable keyboard, will it run something ANET won't allow, and will it be commented on by Anet?

As I stated earlier, I am not interested in this program if it will be something Anet will ban for. If you can supply Anet's official 'allowance', then I may be interested.

Isileth · Jan 15, 2008, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Ok, you got a response about a programmable keyboard. That is nothing new, as those have been around for years. What about your program, which is separate from the keyboard? Will it run ONLY with a programmable keyboard, will it run something ANET won't allow, and will it be commented on by Anet?

As I stated earlier, I am not interested in this program if it will be something Anet will ban for. If you can supply Anet's official 'allowance', then I may be interested.

Really I think while they wont say for deffinate they would allow it.

For example they say

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anet

There is a grey area somewhee between these two scenarios. We cannot make "final decisions" about cases within this grey area if so far there haven't been such cases to decide upon and we will not decide upon any and all cases within this grey area based on nothing but pure speculation. In general, please make sure that while playing you are at your computer and you play the game yourself. Ultimately we want to emphasize how important and unconditionally necessary it is that every character played in GW is being controlled by a person at the computer.

We know that we could not provide you with an unambiguous answer that covers all questions, but we hope that we were able to illustrate the difference between "helping someone at the game" and "playing for someone" and what we consider acceptable with regard to that.

This would at no point play the game for you. It requires player interaction at all times. It cant make any commands without the player and it doesnt choose commands for the player.

At all times its the player controlling it.

MagmaRed · Jan 15, 2008, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Really I think while they wont say for deffinate they would allow it.

For example they say

This would at no point play the game for you. It requires player interaction at all times. It cant make any commands without the player and it doesnt choose commands for the player.

At all times its the player controlling it.

I don't want to get into an arguement about botting, but you can design a bot to behave in the same fashion. I can sit at my computer, and press buttons, and still have the computer be playing for me. This is why it is a 'grey' area. Anet knows that some things can be used 'legally', and some can be adapted for 'illegal' use.

IKNOW · Jan 15, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Sounds like a cool idea, especially if I could configure somthing to deal with this.

Isileth · Jan 15, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I don't want to get into an arguement about botting, but you can design a bot to behave in the same fashion. I can sit at my computer, and press buttons, and still have the computer be playing for me. This is why it is a 'grey' area. Anet knows that some things can be used 'legally', and some can be adapted for 'illegal' use.

True, but this would not be along the lines of.

Press A, char goes off and completes mission X.

It would be press A, hero uses skill X.
Or press B, hero uses skill Y and skill Z.

All of that can already be achieved by clicking 1 or 2 buttons. This would simply make it more effecient. No advantage would be gained because everything it would do is already completely possible.

This would just make it more effecient and user friendly.

Rather than having to target something and click a heroes skill every single time it recharges, you can just press a single button each time.
No advantage, just a quicker and more effecient way of achieving the same goal.

Draikin · Jan 15, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Or press B, hero uses skill Y and skill Z.

What if I press C and it triggers 3 hero skills and a skill on my own character?

Roland of Gilead · Jan 15, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

MagmaRed, my program should work with any input device that generates the same Windows key events as a regular keyboard. For one, I know it works with any plain 5$ keyboard without special keys or software, because that's the type of keyboard I'm using. Besides, writing a program to control a keyboard usually makes that a programmable keyboard, pretty much by definition; after all, if you buy a programmable keyboard in the computer hardware store of your choice, do you think it works in a fundamentally different way than I try to do? You would install software, and that software would present you options to, generally speaking, assign a certain chain of actions to pressing a certain combination of keys.

As for ANet's permission, did you read the answer from support I translated? You won't hear anything more definite from them, but you are, needless to say, free to ignore my program as you see fit, everybody must make up his own mind. As for a program that is botting with the player sitting in front of the computer, now that would be a pretty dumb thing to do, wouldn't it? And you should not assume that the folks who are responsible for banning GW botters are too stupid to discern a legitimate macro user from a macro chaining user from a bot. Bots have totally different behaviour patterns compared to any human player, even any human player using a macro tool. A macro chaining player would be harder to discover, but I for one would be highly suspicious if a player repeatedly activated the same 4 skills within a 10 millisecond time frame. No human without a bot or macro chain tool can ever play that mechanical and fast for any significant length of time, not to mention that this is not the only way ANet looks for botters, which they have repeatedly stated in interviews and through Gaile.

Actually, Isileth and Draikin, binding 2 or more significant actions (e.g. skill activations) to a single key press would already count as botting from ANet's side, so I'm not going to implement that. As long as each action requires at least one click or key press, and as long as one key combination results in no more than one action, the tool is probably ok, otherwise not.

Roland of Gilead · Jan 15, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhedd

I'd give a lot to be able to bind a key to Vekk's Meteor Storm. ^_^

How much, would you say, is "a lot"? A PayPal account is set up quickly

FeroxC · Jan 15, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Congrats, i will be looking forward to using this and reading the source.

Rhedd · Jan 15, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland of Gilead

How much, would you say, is "a lot"? A PayPal account is set up quickly

You can't send LOVE through PayPal. ^_^

(See, I knew you were joking, because what WOULD be super-not-good and totally against the EULA is you making any money off of your efforts.)

Yichi · Jan 15, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Jesus, how much easier do people want this game to be...

Puritans Aid · Jan 15, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

I dont see how this could be allowed, if its a "program" that makes it 3rd party, and illegal..

However,.. I know several people who have macros build into their keyboards, and use them exactly how your talking about.. and its not a "program" on the pc, tho technically still probably not allowed.